with Cindy Lindsay Rael
A New Series on Divine Talk Radio
Listen to 'The Divine Masculine':
Today our topic is the Divine Masculine. To help us tackle this topic, my guest today is Chris Hargrove.
He is my good friend and colleague of mine. He is also a powerful healer and teacher in Ashville, North Carolina, associated with 4 Flames Healing. He is an audio blog contributor here on Divine Talk Radio with his show entitled “The Transformative Power of Grief”. In that, he brings his deep wisdom from his 20+ years as a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and 11 years spent working within the hospice environment.
I am so excited to have you with me, Chris. Welcome.
Chris: Hi, I am happy to be here.
Cindy: To get us into our discussion of the divine masculine let me first give a bit of background about what we mean by divine masculine and feminine.
In modern society, we normally think of masculine and feminine in terms of the physiological, and psychological and social aspects of gender, gender assignment, and gender roles. These are interesting topics that have heated up in the last few years because we’ve been finding that the designations of these are much more fluid than science (or society) may have previously believed.
However, today we’re really looking at something different from these kinds of categories. When we’re talking about the divine or sacred masculine or feminine we’re talking about energies of the creation.
To really understand that we need to start before creation. When there is a great oneness that is God/ Mother Divine. It is a pure consciousness with the potentiality of everything.
Once creation begins there a split of this oneness into duality. Within the creation, we experience this duality as things like masculine and feminine, night and day, good and bad.
So today we’re talking about the split-off energies of the great oneness that we call masculine and feminine.
Within this duality, we must not only master those energies but find a way to pull them back together into oneness. Through this process, we embody the energies of God/ Mother Divine. But also, by combining those energies we find our way back into the wholeness of the divine, and our souls advance.
So, Chris, to get into this discussion here:
How would you define divine masculine? What are the qualities of that energy?
Chris: It is such an interesting question. For me, the divine masculine exists only in relation to the divine feminine. It is not in isolation. The divine masculine is the divine energetic component of each of us, that seeks to provide the spaciousness and stillness/ silence that is sought after and needed by the divine feminine to create. That is the primary activity of the divine feminine is creation. Divine masculine holds the space or container and provides the support for the feminine to create.
Cindy: I love that you are not separating masculine and feminine in that they are split off pieces of the same whole. We want to put them back together into a big wholeness.
In this tradition, we see the feminine as constantly active. Which is quite different from the social psychology definitions of masculine and feminine. In which the masculine is the agentic (active) and the feminine more passive. So, we already see one of those differences that we are talking about as the divine nature of these.
It is active and silent. Silent is not really passive, so I like that better. Silence is a necessary action. In that, we see the duality here, active and silent container.
Often times we see Shiva in this tradition as the divine masculine. If we go back to the creation story, Paramashiva (the infinite Shiva) is the first thing split off from the great oneness. Thus, it is the split of masculine and feminine that is the beginning of duality. It is the duality that runs the maya (illusion) on us. To handle that is a quality of Shiva, that is the deep silence He holds.
Can you describe what it takes to be that Shiva-like? What is going on within that holding of space and silence?
Chris: It is not by accident. It is not easy to find silence. We are not even encouraged to nourish or practice that. So, for me, it is an intentional practice of catching myself with a pause before jumping in to fix it and respond.
A typical male approach is to offer to fix, offer the solution. That is not what I have found to be a nurturing quality of masculine to the divine feminine. Instead, just to give that space to what the female is sharing, and then give space and then more space.
I have an active mind and the tendency would be to come in quickly with associations, suggestions, and solutions. None of those are particularly helpful in the divine masculine, which is about the silence. So, the first thing was just learning to stop myself, pause and not respond. To create that space.
The way I have found to practice that is through meditation. I don’t know another way. It is in meditation that we touch stillness. Then we feel the value and nourishment of it. That makes it easier when my mind wants to say something, to realize that I will be better to hold the space for the divine feminine to express itself. Then after holding space to take care. Taking care is a defining aspect of divine masculine.
In this culture, we see taking care as the provider of income or fixer of things in the house. But I am talking about taking care of the deeper inner qualities of the divine feminine. Emotional support, soul support, spiritual support. Not fixing, but more how can I create a field in which my interacting is experienced as supportive by the divine feminine.
Not what do I want to do to support? Most men go off there. They give what they want to support. Most men want to be supportive of women. They thrive on getting positive feedback from women. So, they want to support but do it on their own agenda. They do that without attuning to what the divine feminine wants from them.
That aspect of attuning, to me, is important to knowing that I am providing what the divine feminine wants and needs in the interaction. Honing in on attunement has been helpful. Though I am in a profession as a social worker and counselor and expected to be empathetic with my clients, and I think I am, we are talking about a more subtle level of attunement. Energetic frequencies and subtle body language rather than words and explicit communication. That dynamic of the masculine and feminine is so powerful to allow for coming into oneness.
For me, this harkens back to the symbol of the yin and yang. A circle with both white and dark parabolas within it and the dot of the other color within each. You cannot have one without the other.
Cindy: Maybe, within that attunement, there is some dot of the other already within us. The way to sense into that, as part of that attunement, is that inner dot of the other within us.
On the stillness issue. Though we are not talking about gender here. There is a difference in the body. When a soul is incarnated in a male or female body they are embedded in a different physiological and energetic system which makes the connection to these divine energies different.
For example, at the physical body level, women have greater interconnection in their brains between hemispheres. This means for one thing, that women’s emotional and feeling senses are more deeply integrated with their linear thought. As well, there are hormonal cycles in women’s bodies that drive our creative ability but can also drive the cycles of emotions.
Both of these make women different in their experience of the emotional components in life. Sri Kaleshwar talked about part of that as the tender-heartedness of women. So, emotions for women are much more integrated into to every thought and idea.
So, what that means for women is that to attend to all aspects of what is happening, not just emotional, we need stitha pregnata, we need expression from emotion and release from the emotional energetic in us. What I hear you saying there is that the space you are giving is space for the emotional expression. For her tender-heartedness to be heard and brought into balance. To engage with that in a supportive and nurturing way, then the space becomes the propagating ground.
Chris: Yes, it creates fertile soil. The provision of spaciousness is a way of valuing what is being shared by the woman in front of you. A more typical response of the male is, not to devalue, but to fix it immediately. Check it off the list. But it is so much more ripe with potential to really value and explore that deep empathic emotional connection that women have. If men do not choose to explore it with women they will not find it with men.
We know this, that men do not make contact, they are looking straight ahead. The emotional expression is narrow. That is one of the things that has hamstrung the men in society. The devaluation of what is offered by the women. The crushing impact of taking a young boy with a vulnerable tender heart and repeatedly teaching him that is not the way to be a man. That is catastrophic for society.
Cindy: Absolutely. These definitions of what is to be a man in society in the world they have a tendency to push the ‘take an action and fix it’. They have a tendency to shut down the emotional. That little dot of the other within. I can see how that serves to send them to war. I guess it evolved over time as a way to get men to do the kinds of things that society and overlords wanted them to do. But I think it is time to change that.
Chis: We have abundant evidence that is time to change that. That pattern has run amuck. In order for women to be heard, even for horrendous episodes, requires a whole movement. Like the 'Me Too' movement. And we can see what is happening as the reaction there. People are dismissing it and making excuses for it. We have that happening today, right now. We devalue the truth of women’s experience in this culture. At great cost.
Cindy: Not only is this in that social component of power and social response but even down to the devaluing of the nature of emotional knowing. There is something inside that connection of emotion and thought that knows something different. There is a kind of knowing there in the emotional.
One problem in the scared feminine is that there is also the wounded feminine that we carry in this world. That wounded feminine has our emotions tied into a pattern of karmic play that is not serving us. But at the deepest level of emotion is a kind of intuition and knowing. If we could tap into the divine level it is incredibly powerful. It knows something about what is happening that cannot be known logically. It knows about the soul’s nature, the pain, the possibility of nurturing and love. Some of those are qualities of God.
Not only do we devalue emotion in men but we do so all together in society
Chris: That emotional knowing is the very aspect to which men need to attune. That will get overlooked because it does not intuitively make sense in the man’s brain. We have to tune in and listen deeply. Because there is so much to be gained from that deep knowing that women have more than men, and that is inaccessible to men in this culture.
Also, in this culture many men have mother wounds, wounds with their own birth mother of feeling not taken care of in the way they needed. What those men do is to seek to replace that love from their mother in their partner. That is an imbalanced relationship. That is not a partnership of divine masculine and feminine. But, it is often what men are actively seeking. Then women say, ‘I am not doing that’.
Cindy: They do not want to be their mother.
There is a mothering quality to the sacred feminine. But, I hear you saying they are looking for something that is missing from their relationship with their mother. That they are looking for something that is missing in them. And whenever we have an expectation that we need to receive something from the other in order to be whole, then we are already starting out on the wrong foot in the relationship.
Chris: Yes. We have the capacity to be whole as individuals with the divine masculine and divine feminine in balance within ourselves. So the notion that we carry around—the Jerry Maguire notion of “you complete me”—is poison.
So, in this culture, what are examples of what the divine masculine looks like? It is not easy to come up with examples in western culture. But there are some in other cultures. The Dalia Lama. Very realized and believes the future of spirituality lies in western women and sees the imbalance and believes it needs to be changed.
Cindy: He has that compassion aspect of taking care you mentioned as part of the divine masculine.
Chris: The divine masculine has to have that. Without empathy and compassion alongside strength and courage, it is not whole even as an expression of divine masculine. Those are basic human values that need to be held within and shared across masculine and feminine.
Desmond Tutu seems also an example of being fully realized. But, who is in our culture? Then it came to me: Fred Rogers, Mr. Rogers. He has that beautiful tenderness, vulnerability and taking care. He devoted decades of his life to taking care of children and helping to instill basic human values. People may think he was weak or a wallflower. I challenge anyone to look at his record of what he did. He was the first white TV host of his own show to have a regularly recurring African American man as a guest, as the mailman. Every day they would have coffee and talk. When the culture was in distress over riots or war, he addressed those themes. His testimony in front of Congress for saving funding for public media; talk about strong. They were there to slash funding for public media. He talked for 20 mins and had the chairman in tears. The chairman told him “you just saved all the money.” One person. If that is not strength, I do not know what strength is.
The other one person that occurred to me is Jimmy Carter. People may say he was weak. I challenge that. He was very strong in his positions and many were unpopular. That is a strength, to stand for your values and convictions in the face of opposing forces. Anyone who has read about Jimmy Carter in interviews and building in Habitat for Humanity would have to notice his tender heart, caring nature and tenderness.
But even the purest examples are subject to getting corrupted by the system we are in.
Cindy: I tend to go back to a Christian example of Jesus. He is that love, that compassion, that open-heartedness. Seeing through the illusion of a person to see who they are and can be. But he has the strength, of course in huge divine power. And strength during the crucifixion and to throw the money changers out of the temple.
So, we have some examples but they are just a bit distant from modern culture. Or not seen for the divine masculine that is there.
Chris: Those examples would be seen as femininized men. They would not see them as masculine characters. Which is a symptom of the imbalance of practical power. It is so vast that there is a big lift that has to happen to get the divine feminine even close to being balanced in the appreciation of its power. This must happen before the divine masculine can even think about advancing.
If you asked me what is the most important part embodying the divine masculine on the planet, I would answer, 'to support and uplift women'. It is that simple to me. Maintain those divine qualities we talked about within the male structure and balance the strength and stillness. But male power is out of control in the creation right now. If men can recognize this and know there is something more to being a man, there is this much larger set of divine qualities. The first task has to be to use their skills to support women in their own path of awakening. To help them to cross the negativity.
Men get sent to war, though that is beginning to shift now. How can a man witness his buddy being shot right next to him and keep going? While a woman may feel the emotional overload of such an experience. For women to cross over those experiences they need the support of the masculine energy. In the world of negativity and to come up in their power, they need the protection and support of the masculine to rise above that. So this negativity does not limit them by the tenderness and sensitivity and emotional nature that make them the beautiful beings they are.
Cindy: So, you are saying that the big job of men is to support women. Also, you are saying there are huge inequities in the society in the valuing of masculine and feminine. So, part of supporting women is about allowing the opportunity for the divine feminine, that is held in women, to come forward more in society. But there is an aspect of being feminine, like her tender-heartedness, that also needs to be supported. In the world full of negativity, women need a sort of footbridge over the negativity and their emotional, tender responses to it. That goes right back to the processes you suggested. Listening, understanding, acknowledging the emotional. But is there more to it than that?
Is there something more a man can do to help a woman cross over the pain and harm they feel, in the face of negativity, because of the greater interconnections of their emotions and intellect?
Chris: It seems more energetic than practical. In those moments with males and females in a difficult situation of negativity, for men to scan for that and energetically makes themselves a buffer for that energy.
Cindy: What does buffering look like?
Chris: For me, it is intention setting. One intention I hold is to take the negativity in those situations. Whatever negativity may seek to attach to or be directed to the women, I want it to come to me first.
Cindy: Interesting that you say that. When my husband and I first decided we would be together, he volunteered that as his job. He saw me as a healer and the need to maintain that, and he offered to take the general negativity for me. I thought—I could use that. I don’t know how he is doing it, but it does seem to work. That is why I am asking. And I also feel that because he offered that, I do not have to feel wimpy if I when it hits me first, I ask him to step in and to do it for me.
So, is there something women can offer men?
Chris: Before we leave, buffer. Sometimes we may not be there when the woman is experiencing the negativity there is still a way to help. That gets back to deep listening. Two men in a bar talking about an issue talk for about 2 minutes about things and then they are done. Women who are sensitive to negativity and energy, allowing them the opportunity to fully express what the experience was, is a way for them to release it. Then the man can take it. We talk about it in this tradition as a soul mate mechanism. A releasing that happens through the sharing with those we trust.
Cindy: Non-judgmental and non-fixing hearing. When my husband does it best he offers some support of me in the part of me that got off. For example, when someone is angry at me and I get terse back, about half of what is bothering me is that I got off and was terse back. He knows that and says something positive to that part of me. He will tell me something like that he knows it takes a lot to get me off because I am such a beautiful being. He offers what he sees as the truth of me, that I may not know about myself at that moment because I am feeling bad.
Chris: That is a perfect segue-way to what women can offer men. My experience is so many men have mother wounds. They did not get enough from their mother and look for it from a partner. They do need love. They need to receive it in a way that is clean; not through role play of their partner in the mother role. But through simple affirming reflections about the beautiful, simple qualities of the male.
If the woman offers that, it is like jet fuel. The man will clear a forest for her. He will do anything. A man who gets a pure channel of love from his partner and her confidence in him, he will stop at nothing to please her. The ‘honey do’ list is a joy because you have given me what I need. Most men are not confident and do not feel loved.
Even the CEOs of mega-corporations with all their power, it is a very thin veneer. Tear that away and they are wounded little boys grasping after more money and power. Trying to get that filled in a way that will never work.
Cindy: Even the rise of narcissism in those holding power today I talked about on an earlier episode of soul talk (criticism part 1), that is an expression of something deeply missing. Feeling not good enough and unworthy. And that is in most all of humankind. So, it seems like a basic thing we could all do for one another. To reflect on the worth in the other and reflect that to them.
Chris: If men and women could hold and reflect basic human values to one another this world would be different. But we are so far from that.
Cindy: Including that power dynamic that is disturbing in this world. Because the way power has been exercised has gotten so far away from divine power. Divine power is love. Divine power is the quality to connect to one another in terms of our soul energies; those parts of us that can transcend and seek to transcend. So, putting each other down is the exact opposite of soul communication.
Chris: It is. In terms of divine qualities of masculine or feminine, this is a world gone crazy and upside down. But I also believe there is a possibility for rapid change. As more and more people open their eyes to the inequity of the system and the injustice and suffering there, then we have the potential to change this creation. It happens on an individual level. The typical man or woman would think that change comes from resistance, organization, or protests. I have done those. I am glad they do those things. They catch attention. But in terms of affecting change? I have not seen that.
Cindy: If they really affect change, the world would be quite different, because those things have been going for generations. So there has got to be a different entry point.
My theory in terms of the divine masculine is that the primary aspect of pulling his divine energy into the world is the open-heartedness. The wounds of the heart (not emotional or mother wounds) have to be healed.
In our tradition, the man must have an open heart to a woman to do some of the life and death yogas. To use his power in that way requires an open heart as the conduit of his divine power. So, there is something about the energy of his open-heartedness. It creates union or operates his energy into the world. There is something there about how it is the source or conduit for providing divine power into the world.
So, seems one of the great things we could do is heal the hearts of men as in an intervention.
Chris: That would be revolutionary. That is what I mean by mother wound. Healing the hearts of men. So many men are walking around with wounded hearts and grasping for what they think they need, or their heart is shut off. And when the heart is closed, your mind will allow you to behave in unconscionable ways and you won’t even think about it.
Cindy: They do not need the extreme connection of emotion and thought that women have if they have an open heart. Then they will feel it.
Chris: Then that mechanism, if male and female partners can be in relationship and their hearts are open to one another, that is a cycle. They pull the energy through the open heart and then that is received and returned. They are empowering and uplifting one another. Cycling pure divine energy.
Especially for women with a tremendous capacity for creation, a man with an open heart can pull amazing creation activity there. That creation is supported and drawn out by the open heart.
Cindy: Even in the womb chakra teaching of Sri Kaleshwar, women have the womb chakra physically in their bodies. But men have the essence of that womb chakra and to access and use it they need to have a pure on a woman and their mother. Same energetic components are seen in this womb chakra teaching. In creating a union there is a necessity of the empowered womb chakra but also the open heart. That is really showing us that flow of energy. Making the cycle you talked about.
Even when we look at the everyday life we can see that, in the combing of masculine and feminine, we get a new creation energy.
So that is our other intervention point.
Chris: Yes. It all begins with an open heart. If we can keep our heart open to one another and the divine, then anything is possible. That calls the divine energy in.
Cindy: It requires some healing of the woundedness and wounded nature of masculine and feminine. But I do believe we can do it.
Chris: We can do it and we see it being done. We can observe relationship even in our own families of those who have open hearts. There are some beautiful partnerships with open hearts to one another. We can experience that difference between open and wounded hearts. It is qualitatively different. Anyone will feel that.
It is not that big a heavy lift to heal a wounded heart with the right tools. We have the right tools. With thousands of students of Sri Kaleshwar and other beautiful healers, it is happening. That soil is being tilled even as the storm clouds gather. It may feel ominous. But open-hearted gardeners are working the soil and planting the seeds and they are starting to germinate. Once there is a whole field coming up, that changes the creation. Even one soul shifting changes the creation. But if there is a collective awakening, I do not even know what that change looks like. It could be instantaneous or incremental, but it is changing. That is where we need to plant our hoe, in that garden of openheartedness.
Cindy: One place to start is with ourselves. We can get healing of our own hearts, standing in openheartedness in our own relationships. Standing in that open heart in our lives.
Anyone who is looking for healing can go to our website www.divinelineage.org and press heal in the menu. There are healers listed there.
I like ending on this positive note. I know they got a great deal from your insight.
Chris: I hope folks have been able to feel the interplay of the masculine and feminine and a balancing of those two. This has been a joy. Thank you.
Cindy: Same for me.
Cindy Lindsay Rael
has been an energy healer and teacher for 25 years. She has studied with Sri Kaleshwar since 2001. She is a graduate of Kaleshwar's Soul University in India and is a certified teacher of the ancient mantra and yantra systems. Prior to her work in the Vedic tradition, she studied, conducted healing, and taught in the Inca traditions of Peru. Cindy also earned a PhD. in Psychology and was a university professor and consultant.
Cindy conducts both distance and in-person healing sessions and teachings. To read more on her approach to Sai Shakti Healing see www.divinesoulhealer.com. In addition, Cindy offers Divine Baby Blessings to pregnant mothers and works with many issues of the Holy Womb (www.wombhealing.com).
is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Sai Shakti Healer in private practice at Four Flames Healing in Asheville, NC. Chris has worked in behavioral health for over 20 years and spent 11 years in Hospice at the bedside where he learned first hand the blessings of being present to the dying and their loved ones. These lessons are enriched by nine years of direct study with Sri Kaleshwar and his revelations about the true mechanisms of healing grief, loss, and heartbreak Chris is available for in-person and remote Sai Shakti Healing sessions and counseling. To learn more please visit: www.fourflameshealing.com/chris